online Land Title maps
online Land Title maps
I'd like to see a map of all the land titles in an area. I'm sure they exist at the Cadastral Office, but I'd like to know if they offer free or cheap copies - $20 would be ok, or if such maps are available online? Anyone?
(One side of the page on a Standard Hard title includes a small map of the titled land, and all adjoining plots. I'd like something like that, but for a bigger area. Online would be great as you could zoom in or out.)
(One side of the page on a Standard Hard title includes a small map of the titled land, and all adjoining plots. I'd like something like that, but for a bigger area. Online would be great as you could zoom in or out.)
I see K440 interest in subject, but no leads on online map availability.
OK, how about who might have access to these maps? Office of Land Management obviously, but question becomes, "How willing are they to show them to random expats? Any ideas? Speculation or experience?
Banks? They certainly hold heaps of land titles for borrowers. How likely is it that a friendly Bank Manager/loan manager, might allow a phone picture or 2 of some maps? Especially if you express interest in purchasing some distressed properties?
Anyone else who might have access? International NGO's doing infrastructure? ADB road/sewer/water? Japanese similar projects? Embassies? Any thoughts?
AND further, I know the land office does some property checks to see if titles are "Free & Clear" as an early part of the purchase process, but might anyone suggest how this might be done before reaching that stage? Do banks do any checks before accepting a land title for collateral? Would that mean IF you bought a title from an owner but straight form the bank it has a good chance of being "Free & Clear"?
Thoughts appreciated.
OK, how about who might have access to these maps? Office of Land Management obviously, but question becomes, "How willing are they to show them to random expats? Any ideas? Speculation or experience?
Banks? They certainly hold heaps of land titles for borrowers. How likely is it that a friendly Bank Manager/loan manager, might allow a phone picture or 2 of some maps? Especially if you express interest in purchasing some distressed properties?
Anyone else who might have access? International NGO's doing infrastructure? ADB road/sewer/water? Japanese similar projects? Embassies? Any thoughts?
AND further, I know the land office does some property checks to see if titles are "Free & Clear" as an early part of the purchase process, but might anyone suggest how this might be done before reaching that stage? Do banks do any checks before accepting a land title for collateral? Would that mean IF you bought a title from an owner but straight form the bank it has a good chance of being "Free & Clear"?
Thoughts appreciated.
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You haven't given a reason why you want to see these land titles. Unless you have a good reason then I'm confident the answer would be no.
If it's just for a looky see then forget about it. But I'd probably start at local Sangkat and ask them - they may hold a large map of the area.
I'm sure banks do not file collateral documents geographically, it will be filed under customer name. So unless you know borrower name and the bank they borrow from then it's a futile search. I'm sure bank staff wouldn't be able to produce all title docs they hold.in a certain area. Not that they'd be inclined to throw open their records for a random foreigner. But sure, offer then $20...
If it's just for a looky see then forget about it. But I'd probably start at local Sangkat and ask them - they may hold a large map of the area.
I'm sure banks do not file collateral documents geographically, it will be filed under customer name. So unless you know borrower name and the bank they borrow from then it's a futile search. I'm sure bank staff wouldn't be able to produce all title docs they hold.in a certain area. Not that they'd be inclined to throw open their records for a random foreigner. But sure, offer then $20...
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No - zero chance.Guest9999 wrote: ↑Thu May 02, 2024 12:06 amBanks? They certainly hold heaps of land titles for borrowers. How likely is it that a friendly Bank Manager/loan manager, might allow a phone picture or 2 of some maps? Especially if you express interest in purchasing some distressed properties?
YesGuest9999 wrote: ↑Thu May 02, 2024 12:06 amDo banks do any checks before accepting a land title for collateral?
You cannot buy it straight from the bank.Guest9999 wrote: ↑Thu May 02, 2024 12:06 amWould that mean IF you bought a title from an owner but straight form the bank it has a good chance of being "Free & Clear"?
Reading between the lines, it looks as though you are trying to find distressed properties at a discount. But the process is long and convoluted. In a nutshell, the bank will take the borrower to court if they clearly cannot pay their loan/mortgage, etc. The court will then auction off the properties, recover whatever money possible for the bank, plus their own fees, etc. I have heard from locals that the chances of getting anything from these auctions is also near zero as all the good stuff is hoovered up by those involved in the process.
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Meum est propositum in taberna mori,
ut sint Guinness proxima morientis ori.
tunc cantabunt letius angelorum chori:
"Sit Deus propitius huic potatori."
ut sint Guinness proxima morientis ori.
tunc cantabunt letius angelorum chori:
"Sit Deus propitius huic potatori."
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The only feasible way it to buy from owner before the bank starts the process.Spigzy wrote: ↑Thu May 02, 2024 10:02 amNo - zero chance.Guest9999 wrote: ↑Thu May 02, 2024 12:06 amBanks? They certainly hold heaps of land titles for borrowers. How likely is it that a friendly Bank Manager/loan manager, might allow a phone picture or 2 of some maps? Especially if you express interest in purchasing some distressed properties?
YesGuest9999 wrote: ↑Thu May 02, 2024 12:06 amDo banks do any checks before accepting a land title for collateral?
You cannot buy it straight from the bank.Guest9999 wrote: ↑Thu May 02, 2024 12:06 amWould that mean IF you bought a title from an owner but straight form the bank it has a good chance of being "Free & Clear"?
Reading between the lines, it looks as though you are trying to find distressed properties at a discount. But the process is long and convoluted. In a nutshell, the bank will take the borrower to court if they clearly cannot pay their loan/mortgage, etc. The court will then auction off the properties, recover whatever money possible for the bank, plus their own fees, etc. I have heard from locals that the chances of getting anything from these auctions is also near zero as all the good stuff is hoovered up by those involved in the process.
Many people are very reluctant to buy land like this as they think the bank will take the land off them if the distressed seller takes your money but doesn’t pay the bank.
Look for signs saying ដីលក់បន្ទាន់ (land urgent sale). Locals are not shy about saying that they really need to sell - which IMO puts them at an immediate negotiating disadvantage.
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I know someone wanting to sell a chunk of land and the buildings on them. Buildings need work and situation is complex, but, partly because they have a very strong desire to sell, I'm really quite interested in buying. (Any purchase will be in my Khmer wife's name and because we were married outside Cambodia, my name won't be on any documents and she'll be recorded as "single". Crazy, yes, but I'm ok with it.)
And the complex bit. Perhaps sit down if you're standing.
The land chunk, all fenced in as if one piece since 2009, is 2 larger adjacent titles and a smaller 3rd title on the other side of a 4m laneway, one that currently only exits on paper. Added to the back corner of the smaller title is roughly 100m2 on a currently non-existent 20m wide government road. The road and laneway were part of an old French colonial planning document, and though they still exist on photo-copies of the property titles I've been shown, the road was perhaps never built. A few dozen old and new building exist on the road right-of-way, including a large Military Police Headquarters, and a 30 year-old Government Nursery School. I realize I can't buy (or sell) title to this untitled land, and one day I could lose the use of it, but if they ever did decide to build the French map road and slice off that back corner, the property will front two large streets and would likely increase in value, not decrease.
The given copied titles have small maps of adjacent title numbers, and I've used the numbers to look up title sizes, owners and etc, but I can't see the maps on those other titles. The French map road was drawn diagonally across a small regular grid of streets perhaps a hundred years ago. Its entry and exit point on each block as the grid expanded over the last century isn't clear on the ground, or on Google Earth. I'd really like to see exactly where the unbuilt road runs, reasoning that the more rich and important people who have assumed use of the untitled land, the less likely it is that I'll be surprised in the immediate future.
I'm sure no one will read this far, but, glutton for punishment, I'll continue.
All 3 titles are in a bank as loan collateral, and when the land owner told the bank I was interested, while asking for title photocopies, the bank quietly reached out to my brother-in-law who had been negotiating on my behalf, to suggest the bank would be very happy about a purchase. They wouldn't say more without owner consent.
With owner consent, I really need tight bank coordination to make this happen. As I understand it, owner, bank, and buyer need to ask both Land Office and Sangkat to declare all 3 tiles "free and clear", even though bank will continue to control (hold?) them until the loan has been fully paid back. It needs tight coordination because I'm inclined to buy 2 first and the 3rd a bit later when I have the cash, rather than getting a loan and buying all 3 at once. The owner is a retired Customs Chief, so I'm sure things will be fine. Agreed?
And the complex bit. Perhaps sit down if you're standing.
The land chunk, all fenced in as if one piece since 2009, is 2 larger adjacent titles and a smaller 3rd title on the other side of a 4m laneway, one that currently only exits on paper. Added to the back corner of the smaller title is roughly 100m2 on a currently non-existent 20m wide government road. The road and laneway were part of an old French colonial planning document, and though they still exist on photo-copies of the property titles I've been shown, the road was perhaps never built. A few dozen old and new building exist on the road right-of-way, including a large Military Police Headquarters, and a 30 year-old Government Nursery School. I realize I can't buy (or sell) title to this untitled land, and one day I could lose the use of it, but if they ever did decide to build the French map road and slice off that back corner, the property will front two large streets and would likely increase in value, not decrease.
The given copied titles have small maps of adjacent title numbers, and I've used the numbers to look up title sizes, owners and etc, but I can't see the maps on those other titles. The French map road was drawn diagonally across a small regular grid of streets perhaps a hundred years ago. Its entry and exit point on each block as the grid expanded over the last century isn't clear on the ground, or on Google Earth. I'd really like to see exactly where the unbuilt road runs, reasoning that the more rich and important people who have assumed use of the untitled land, the less likely it is that I'll be surprised in the immediate future.
I'm sure no one will read this far, but, glutton for punishment, I'll continue.
All 3 titles are in a bank as loan collateral, and when the land owner told the bank I was interested, while asking for title photocopies, the bank quietly reached out to my brother-in-law who had been negotiating on my behalf, to suggest the bank would be very happy about a purchase. They wouldn't say more without owner consent.
With owner consent, I really need tight bank coordination to make this happen. As I understand it, owner, bank, and buyer need to ask both Land Office and Sangkat to declare all 3 tiles "free and clear", even though bank will continue to control (hold?) them until the loan has been fully paid back. It needs tight coordination because I'm inclined to buy 2 first and the 3rd a bit later when I have the cash, rather than getting a loan and buying all 3 at once. The owner is a retired Customs Chief, so I'm sure things will be fine. Agreed?
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Anywhere else and I’d be more than content to attempt to proceed with a purchase like this. But knowing stuff that has happened here in the past - the amount of ‘non-standard’ points would make me run a mile.Guest9999 wrote: ↑Fri May 03, 2024 2:09 amI know someone wanting to sell a chunk of land and the buildings on them. Buildings need work and situation is complex, but, partly because they have a very strong desire to sell, I'm really quite interested in buying. (Any purchase will be in my Khmer wife's name and because we were married outside Cambodia, my name won't be on any documents and she'll be recorded as "single". Crazy, yes, but I'm ok with it.)
And the complex bit. Perhaps sit down if you're standing.
The land chunk, all fenced in as if one piece since 2009, is 2 larger adjacent titles and a smaller 3rd title on the other side of a 4m laneway, one that currently only exits on paper. Added to the back corner of the smaller title is roughly 100m2 on a currently non-existent 20m wide government road. The road and laneway were part of an old French colonial planning document, and though they still exist on photo-copies of the property titles I've been shown, the road was perhaps never built. A few dozen old and new building exist on the road right-of-way, including a large Military Police Headquarters, and a 30 year-old Government Nursery School. I realize I can't buy (or sell) title to this untitled land, and one day I could lose the use of it, but if they ever did decide to build the French map road and slice off that back corner, the property will front two large streets and would likely increase in value, not decrease.
The given copied titles have small maps of adjacent title numbers, and I've used the numbers to look up title sizes, owners and etc, but I can't see the maps on those other titles. The French map road was drawn diagonally across a small regular grid of streets perhaps a hundred years ago. Its entry and exit point on each block as the grid expanded over the last century isn't clear on the ground, or on Google Earth. I'd really like to see exactly where the unbuilt road runs, reasoning that the more rich and important people who have assumed use of the untitled land, the less likely it is that I'll be surprised in the immediate future.
I'm sure no one will read this far, but, glutton for punishment, I'll continue.
All 3 titles are in a bank as loan collateral, and when the land owner told the bank I was interested, while asking for title photocopies, the bank quietly reached out to my brother-in-law who had been negotiating on my behalf, to suggest the bank would be very happy about a purchase. They wouldn't say more without owner consent.
With owner consent, I really need tight bank coordination to make this happen. As I understand it, owner, bank, and buyer need to ask both Land Office and Sangkat to declare all 3 tiles "free and clear", even though bank will continue to control (hold?) them until the loan has been fully paid back. It needs tight coordination because I'm inclined to buy 2 first and the 3rd a bit later when I have the cash, rather than getting a loan and buying all 3 at once. The owner is a retired Customs Chief, so I'm sure things will be fine. Agreed?
If it was in the UK the money gets paid to a solicitor and they release it to the bank, who then furnishes the solicitor with the deeds. The solicitor has legally enforced contracts with customer and a legal solicitors undertaking with the bank. The buyer is very protected. Here, not so much. You pay to the seller, Hope they pay back the bank borrowing and release deeds, which then need to get changed to your name. I wouldn’t trust the process that nobody tries to diddle you at some stage - including those in the legal profession.
If the owner had borrowing on the property, then it is possible for them to get the bank to release the deeds pending sale. He may need to put up other short term collateral, but this depends on good relations and trust between him and lender, if as what I’m guessing he has defaulted on borrowing then bank may be less likely to trust him.
Buyer beware. I probably wouldn’t do it.
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Recent ongoing experience of an in-law.ផោមក្លិនស្អុយ wrote: ↑Fri May 03, 2024 10:27 am
If the owner had borrowing on the property, then it is possible for them to get the bank to release the deeds pending sale. He may need to put up other short term collateral, but this depends on good relations and trust between him and lender, if as what I’m guessing he has defaulted on borrowing then bank may be less likely to trust him.
Buyer beware. I probably wouldn’t do it.
Owe Acleda around $100k, need to pay $1600/m on interest alone.
Land worth an estimated $200k, with title held by bank.
Bank won't release title until every last red cent is paid (understandable)
Potential buyer won't hand over anything until they see the title (sensible)
And while they could/should have a way to sort out this between bank-seller-buyer, it's obviously in the bank's best interest (no pun intended) to keep squeezing the borrower for those $1600 a month while still holding the collateral.
In an ideal world, there would be some mechanism to reduce debt burdens and allow such sales to go through easily- at least some sort of financial reforms, but hey, let's not hold our breath.
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I don’t know exactly what each banks rules are but I’ve had some recent experience.Skipworth Green wrote: ↑Fri May 03, 2024 10:56 amRecent ongoing experience of an in-law.ផោមក្លិនស្អុយ wrote: ↑Fri May 03, 2024 10:27 am
If the owner had borrowing on the property, then it is possible for them to get the bank to release the deeds pending sale. He may need to put up other short term collateral, but this depends on good relations and trust between him and lender, if as what I’m guessing he has defaulted on borrowing then bank may be less likely to trust him.
Buyer beware. I probably wouldn’t do it.
Owe Acleda around $100k, need to pay $1600/m on interest alone.
Land worth an estimated $200k, with title held by bank.
Bank won't release title until every last red cent is paid (understandable)
Potential buyer won't hand over anything until they see the title (sensible)
And while they could/should have a way to sort out this between bank-seller-buyer, it's obviously in the bank's best interest (no pun intended) to keep squeezing the borrower for those $1600 a month while still holding the collateral.
In an ideal world, there would be some mechanism to reduce debt burdens and allow such sales to go through easily- at least some sort of financial reforms, but hey, let's not hold our breath.
1. My colleague is up to date with payments is selling land, woori bank will release title deeds to him to facilitate a sale, they have some timeline stipulations and hold limited collateral on another piece of land.
2. I was looking at a piece of land which was mortgaged, payments were in arrears. Sathapana bank agreed to release deeds to facilitate sale. I don’t know if they asked for other collateral. I ended up not going through with it due to other complications.
So it is possible but may depend on one’s relationship with bank and if you have any other collateral to put up.
With so much bad debt on the banks books here I’d have thought that they’d be falling over themselves to get rid of dodgy or potentially dodgy debt - maybe in-law needs to fall in arrears for a few months to make the bank take notice!
The bank holding all 3 titles is a 4 minute walk from the property. I have a long relationship with some bank staff, but have not yet met the Manager of that branch. I'm out of country at the moment, but will go meet him (her?) as soon as I'm back.
The owner has lived on that property since they bought it, perhaps 2009. He retired shortly thereafter. They claim some wealth(?), but tied to properties in Sihanoukville and the provinces. They drive a nice enough 10 year old Land Cruiser, as was the habit of Government bosses his age. Next week they, the owner and his wife, are flying to BKK for health check-ups. Yet, some buildings on the property, though not their house, have rooms filled with random trash, broken toilets and doors off their hinges. It feels like parts of these buildings haven't seen a broom or mop in 5-8 years, not just Covid depression. Perhaps some windows don't properly close, but wall and floor stains show they've been open through quite a few rainy seasons. His position was one of wealth and power, but the wrecked building begs an explanation, it sets my mental alarm bells ringing. I FEEL they have not made loan payments since Covid.
Certainly I'm hesitant, why else would I post to Cambodia's oldest, most trusted expat forum.
From owner statements, it seems 2 titles are collateral for one loan, with around $250K remaining on the books, and the 3rd title is collateral for a different, later, loan at the same bank. Owner has said bank agrees to release the 2 titles I want first as soon as bank gets that amount, paid in the bank. Then outside the bank, enroute to the Land Office 3 blocks away, the owner will get more, some of which will pay, they promise, for all taxes, fees, and title transfer costs. I hope, and assume, they will go back to making regular payments on the 3rd title.
Spigzy, you confirmed banks check out titles when they take them for loan collateral. I'd very much appreciate it if you could add detail. How and with who do they check?
I understand time has past since the loan was made and rent/lease/other agreements might since have been made that the bank knows nothing about, but at the time the loan was made, would you trust that the bank's title checks reliably established they were then "free and clear"?
The owner has lived on that property since they bought it, perhaps 2009. He retired shortly thereafter. They claim some wealth(?), but tied to properties in Sihanoukville and the provinces. They drive a nice enough 10 year old Land Cruiser, as was the habit of Government bosses his age. Next week they, the owner and his wife, are flying to BKK for health check-ups. Yet, some buildings on the property, though not their house, have rooms filled with random trash, broken toilets and doors off their hinges. It feels like parts of these buildings haven't seen a broom or mop in 5-8 years, not just Covid depression. Perhaps some windows don't properly close, but wall and floor stains show they've been open through quite a few rainy seasons. His position was one of wealth and power, but the wrecked building begs an explanation, it sets my mental alarm bells ringing. I FEEL they have not made loan payments since Covid.
Certainly I'm hesitant, why else would I post to Cambodia's oldest, most trusted expat forum.
From owner statements, it seems 2 titles are collateral for one loan, with around $250K remaining on the books, and the 3rd title is collateral for a different, later, loan at the same bank. Owner has said bank agrees to release the 2 titles I want first as soon as bank gets that amount, paid in the bank. Then outside the bank, enroute to the Land Office 3 blocks away, the owner will get more, some of which will pay, they promise, for all taxes, fees, and title transfer costs. I hope, and assume, they will go back to making regular payments on the 3rd title.
Spigzy, you confirmed banks check out titles when they take them for loan collateral. I'd very much appreciate it if you could add detail. How and with who do they check?
I understand time has past since the loan was made and rent/lease/other agreements might since have been made that the bank knows nothing about, but at the time the loan was made, would you trust that the bank's title checks reliably established they were then "free and clear"?
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Not really sure I understand what you want but if the land holds a hard title, you should find detailed information about current and planned roads in the hard title documentation.
To confirm ownership, you can check it at https://gdcg.mlmupc.gov.kh/ (currently offline, unfortunately), provided you have the QR code from the land title paper.
The owner should possess documentation from the bank, allowing you to review all pertinent details of the land, including if any additional mortgages exist.
When you are purchasing the land, you agree to pay the amount the mortgage is existing in the bank, so the seller can release the hard title. Then the last payment happens when the title is under your wife's name.
However, if the title is soft or uncertain in nature, then just stay away from it.
To confirm ownership, you can check it at https://gdcg.mlmupc.gov.kh/ (currently offline, unfortunately), provided you have the QR code from the land title paper.
The owner should possess documentation from the bank, allowing you to review all pertinent details of the land, including if any additional mortgages exist.
When you are purchasing the land, you agree to pay the amount the mortgage is existing in the bank, so the seller can release the hard title. Then the last payment happens when the title is under your wife's name.
However, if the title is soft or uncertain in nature, then just stay away from it.
Thanks for all comments.
All Hard Titles. Iv'e already looked up title ownership linked by the QR codes to the Gov website you mention.. Small maps on titles show the roads and lanes I mentioned, and title total square meters, but give no GIS points so Precise dimensions of sides and angled road alignment is hard to know. Title maps not adjacent or shown on the titles I'm interested in purchasing would give me a more clear picture of that road.
I'll visit bank with owner and hopefully gain some clarity about whether land is Free & Clear, and I'll see if Land Office or other Government departments might have more exact ideas of how the titles exactly lay on the land. (About 25 years ago an Australian Volunteer I knew worked in the Department of Rural Development on an early version of L-Map for allocation of demined land. I think I heard L-Map isn't used anymore, but maybe friendly folk in the PDRD still have some maps accessible?)
Step by step.
All Hard Titles. Iv'e already looked up title ownership linked by the QR codes to the Gov website you mention.. Small maps on titles show the roads and lanes I mentioned, and title total square meters, but give no GIS points so Precise dimensions of sides and angled road alignment is hard to know. Title maps not adjacent or shown on the titles I'm interested in purchasing would give me a more clear picture of that road.
I'll visit bank with owner and hopefully gain some clarity about whether land is Free & Clear, and I'll see if Land Office or other Government departments might have more exact ideas of how the titles exactly lay on the land. (About 25 years ago an Australian Volunteer I knew worked in the Department of Rural Development on an early version of L-Map for allocation of demined land. I think I heard L-Map isn't used anymore, but maybe friendly folk in the PDRD still have some maps accessible?)
Step by step.
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