Burma Going Down
Burma Going Down
Is it violent Social Unrest porn if you care?
In the early days of the Communist uprising in Katmandu, I ran around with some camera man 'helping to document' the riots. (I think it was early 90's, but might have been late 80's.) I don't recall any shooting, just tear gas, police charges, and mostly teens prying up the cobblestone streets and lobbing bricks at the army and police. It was very exciting, but to me, an outsider, a mere tourist, witnessing their passion felt slightly voyeuristic. I love the people and the country, but it wasn't my fight.
Now Burma. Real hell, more than whole order of magnitude higher. The N York Times had some powerful photos, and on the other forum (sorry) Phuketrichard has posted some short, terrifying videos. Asking when the world will step in and do something.
I get that. I feel that. I just wish it was easier and more certain to make things right.
A VERY long shot, but maybe it is an occasion where China and USA could cooperate. Not to solve the situation, again it is their own fight, their own process towards a solution, but to dial it down and stop the random killing.
All powerful countries have done bad shit. but all countries also prefer to at least look good. China has the best chance, short of invasion, maybe the only chance to stop short term carnage. Who knows if that makes future peace more of less likely, but I really don't want to see more of those short, brutal video clips.
In the early days of the Communist uprising in Katmandu, I ran around with some camera man 'helping to document' the riots. (I think it was early 90's, but might have been late 80's.) I don't recall any shooting, just tear gas, police charges, and mostly teens prying up the cobblestone streets and lobbing bricks at the army and police. It was very exciting, but to me, an outsider, a mere tourist, witnessing their passion felt slightly voyeuristic. I love the people and the country, but it wasn't my fight.
Now Burma. Real hell, more than whole order of magnitude higher. The N York Times had some powerful photos, and on the other forum (sorry) Phuketrichard has posted some short, terrifying videos. Asking when the world will step in and do something.
I get that. I feel that. I just wish it was easier and more certain to make things right.
A VERY long shot, but maybe it is an occasion where China and USA could cooperate. Not to solve the situation, again it is their own fight, their own process towards a solution, but to dial it down and stop the random killing.
All powerful countries have done bad shit. but all countries also prefer to at least look good. China has the best chance, short of invasion, maybe the only chance to stop short term carnage. Who knows if that makes future peace more of less likely, but I really don't want to see more of those short, brutal video clips.
I spent time in Nepal myself during the civil war. It struck me that the Maoists were reasonably humane - the king's security forces not so much but there was little of the viciousness we see in Myanmar now. In fact the comparison that sticks in my mind every day I read the news is the Khmer Rouge. There is no bottom to the murderous intent of the Tatmasdaw regime. So I agree with you - either we sit by and witness an entire nation slaughterted and enslaved by murderous animals, like happened here decades ago, or a multinational force intervenes. China has the most to lose if there is no intervention, and it would be very much in their interests to work with other nations to that end. I doubt it will happen, but it should. What might more realistically happen is multiple nations arm the Shan, Wa and other minority armies, completely disregarding how the Mujahadeen rose to power in Afghanistan in the 90s.
- Lucky Lucan
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I was in Nepal a few months before the Maoist insurrection blew up. I suppose in retrospect there were signs. General strikes etc. I met police who told me their Lee Enfields were just for show. Not long after they were being massacred.
Romantic Cambodia is dead and gone. It's with McKinley in the grave.
That cunt General who says he 'must protect democracy'. Wtf?
When will the world step in to sort it?, never. For some obscure reason, this Junta has been allowed to exist for 50 years with little intention to improve the lives o the Burmese.
I don't know what is more sickening; the military dictatorship there or the inertia from the west to help sort it.
I did see the pic of outdated rifles but still very effective when used on unarmed protesters and Japanese photographers
When will the world step in to sort it?, never. For some obscure reason, this Junta has been allowed to exist for 50 years with little intention to improve the lives o the Burmese.
I don't know what is more sickening; the military dictatorship there or the inertia from the west to help sort it.
I did see the pic of outdated rifles but still very effective when used on unarmed protesters and Japanese photographers
"Not my circus, not my monkeys" - KiR
- spitthedog
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In a way i think it's arrogant the way western powers think they can move in and solve problems out in a just a few weeks that have been there for hundreds of years.
Myanmar is effectively made up of many seperate tribal states, like Karen, Mon, Shan to name a few. These are like isolated countries within a country.
My wife is Karen. When we cycled to her brothers village there were 4 friendly guys hunched under thatch, guarding the road into the village with AK47's.
It brought home the thought that the Karen still want to control their own affairs.
One of the villages had one leg missing. I asked how he lost it and he said it was from walking through a mine field that had been laid on the borders of the village.
Borders within borders.
Tallest palm trees i have ever seen.
The villagers were like Last of the Mohicans sort of looking.
When we got nearer her village a guy on a check point told my wife that we would be thrown in jail if we tried to go to her village, as obviously sensitive area.
I got the impression he was just trying to scare us.
Like Iraq, the place was probably a melting pot of ethnic problems years before any western nations got involved.
Big opium production in Shan state, not to mention yaba.
Friendly humble place though. I loved it.
Will never forget the impressive kindness of the temples that allowed us to pitch our tent overnight.
Myanmar is effectively made up of many seperate tribal states, like Karen, Mon, Shan to name a few. These are like isolated countries within a country.
My wife is Karen. When we cycled to her brothers village there were 4 friendly guys hunched under thatch, guarding the road into the village with AK47's.
It brought home the thought that the Karen still want to control their own affairs.
One of the villages had one leg missing. I asked how he lost it and he said it was from walking through a mine field that had been laid on the borders of the village.
Borders within borders.
Tallest palm trees i have ever seen.
The villagers were like Last of the Mohicans sort of looking.
When we got nearer her village a guy on a check point told my wife that we would be thrown in jail if we tried to go to her village, as obviously sensitive area.
I got the impression he was just trying to scare us.
Like Iraq, the place was probably a melting pot of ethnic problems years before any western nations got involved.
Big opium production in Shan state, not to mention yaba.
Friendly humble place though. I loved it.
Will never forget the impressive kindness of the temples that allowed us to pitch our tent overnight.
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"I don't care what the people are thinking, i ain't drunk i'm just drinking"
Ok then, instead we will all just tune in to watch the carnage as some voyeuristic entertainment, saying 'yeah but hey they been doing this for hundreds of years so wtf'.spitthedog wrote: ↑Sun Mar 28, 2021 3:12 amIn a way i think it's arrogant the way western powers think they can move in and solve problems out in a just a few weeks ...
"Not my circus, not my monkeys" - KiR
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This is probably a bit naive, but still...
Trying to put and end to the violence, does not have to be the same as trying to force your version of government on them. To get the fractions to sit down and try to sort their shit out by negotiations in stead of using violence I would think is in compliance with most political and religious dogmas. I don’t think would be imperialistic or denying them their freedom to define what society they want to build. Just letting it play out is just voyeuristic, and wont lead to any resolve. So far trying to anhalte the opposition have never really worked, there will always be a few survivors now destined to seek revenge. You might disable them for some time, but the resentment will just lead to future violence. And in the end having to fight rebellions repeatedly just costs to much even for the winning side, so its never as simple as crush the opposition and kill them all. That just doesn't lead to solving the problem. In the end almost everybody living somewhere just wants stability and security, regimes just fail to deliver in that regard. How to find a balance must be up to the involved parties, and shouldn’t be forced upon them, that will just lead the fractions to unite vs a new common enemy.
Trying to put and end to the violence, does not have to be the same as trying to force your version of government on them. To get the fractions to sit down and try to sort their shit out by negotiations in stead of using violence I would think is in compliance with most political and religious dogmas. I don’t think would be imperialistic or denying them their freedom to define what society they want to build. Just letting it play out is just voyeuristic, and wont lead to any resolve. So far trying to anhalte the opposition have never really worked, there will always be a few survivors now destined to seek revenge. You might disable them for some time, but the resentment will just lead to future violence. And in the end having to fight rebellions repeatedly just costs to much even for the winning side, so its never as simple as crush the opposition and kill them all. That just doesn't lead to solving the problem. In the end almost everybody living somewhere just wants stability and security, regimes just fail to deliver in that regard. How to find a balance must be up to the involved parties, and shouldn’t be forced upon them, that will just lead the fractions to unite vs a new common enemy.
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Not naive at all, it's all about solutions, I had the UN in mind, not a Desert Storm scenario. That said, you can only exercise diplomacy with a diplomat and military coup leaders are not usually of that ilk.
@spotthedog, Iraq can not be compared with Burma; entirely different situation.
@spotthedog, Iraq can not be compared with Burma; entirely different situation.
"Not my circus, not my monkeys" - KiR
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lived off and on in Nepal 1985- the early 90's ( while living in Thailand as well)
the Maoist uprising was in 96, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nepalese_Civil_War
rather than repeat the thread here, ( a little traffic means fuck all) even if u hate ceo, take a look at my thread, Been following it since the end of Jan. https://cambodiaexpatsonline.com/post48 ... ma#p481814
Its shameful that nothing is being done by anyone..
even now the Shans, Kachins are supporting and assisting the protestors.
the Maoist uprising was in 96, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nepalese_Civil_War
rather than repeat the thread here, ( a little traffic means fuck all) even if u hate ceo, take a look at my thread, Been following it since the end of Jan. https://cambodiaexpatsonline.com/post48 ... ma#p481814
Its shameful that nothing is being done by anyone..
so true and they have been fighting for their own independent countries promised them for assisting the Brits and Americans against the japs, since the early 50'sMyanmar is effectively made up of many seperate tribal states, like Karen, Mon, Shan to name a few. These are like isolated countries within a country.
even now the Shans, Kachins are supporting and assisting the protestors.
"We are turning into a nation of whimpering slaves to Fear—fear of war, fear of poverty, fear of random terrorism, or suddenly getting locked up in a military detention camp on vague charges of being a Terrorist sympathizer." HST
- spitthedog
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Sadaam gassed and fought to control different fighting or opposing tribes because they were different.kinard wrote: ↑Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:39 amNot naive at all, it's all about solutions, I had the UN in mind, not a Desert Storm scenario. That said, you can only exercise diplomacy with a diplomat and military coup leaders are not usually of that ilk.
@spotthedog, Iraq can not be compared with Burma; entirely different situation.
The Burmese government has fought to control and turn the Karen into Burmese for decades.
Then there's the Muslim persecution problem.
Those are similarities, and the same problems that the U. S would struggle to fully understand without being Iraqi imho.
"I don't care what the people are thinking, i ain't drunk i'm just drinking"
My bad, I had thought Sddam was the iron fist to keep a lid on religious separatism. The persecution of the Kurds and marsh Arabs was merely a sport to him; everyone seems to dislike border minorities and he was evil enough to try and genocide them.spitthedog wrote: ↑Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:08 amSadaam gassed and fought to control different fighting or opposing tribes because they were different.kinard wrote: ↑Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:39 amNot naive at all, it's all about solutions, I had the UN in mind, not a Desert Storm scenario. That said, you can only exercise diplomacy with a diplomat and military coup leaders are not usually of that ilk.
@spotthedog, Iraq can not be compared with Burma; entirely different situation.
The Burmese government has fought to control and turn the Karen into Burmese for decades.
Then there's the Muslim persecution problem.
Those are similarities, and the same problems that the U. S would struggle to fully understand without being Iraqi imho.
For Myanmar it is a military coup to oust the popular Suu Kyi. In this current crisis the military are not trying to genocide anyone as far as I can tell and has not unfolded because minorities are demanding independence. It is because the Burmese people, collectively, have had their democracy stolen.
"Not my circus, not my monkeys" - KiR
A UN peacekeeping force isn’t the answer and if the US get involved (if they’re not already) they will be criticised for sticking their beak in (by me and others) so the only answer is the Chinese to try and mediate, but not sure that’s their bag.
pew, pew, pew, pew!
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the more the world condemns them, the more the Junta digs in
https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN2BJ02HMyanmar security forces killed 114 people, including some children, in a brutal crackdown on pro-democracy protesters on Saturday, the bloodiest day of violence since last month's military coup, news reports and witnesses said.
The killings, which took place on Armed Forces Day, drew strong renewed criticism from Western countries. British Ambassador Dan Chugg said the security forces had "disgraced themselves" and the U.S. envoy called the violence horrifying.
Military jets also launched air strikes on a village in territory controlled by an armed group from the Karen ethnic minority and at least two people were killed, a civil society group said.
Earlier, the Karen National Union said it had overrun an army post near the Thai border, killing 10 people - including a lieutenant colonel - and losing one of its own fighters as tensions with the military surged after years of relative peace.
Senior General Min Aung Hlaing, the junta leader, said during a parade to mark Armed Forces Day that the military would protect the people and strive for democrac
"We are turning into a nation of whimpering slaves to Fear—fear of war, fear of poverty, fear of random terrorism, or suddenly getting locked up in a military detention camp on vague charges of being a Terrorist sympathizer." HST
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